“Empathy and Communication: Do We Have to Have ‘Been There’?” Comments, Page 1
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27 Responses (9 Discussion Threads) to “Empathy and Communication: Do We Have to Have ‘Been There’?”
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Mia
1On the cockatoos, oh I know by experience of what you refer!! I enjoyed seeing the many species of bird while visiting last month. How can they be so beautiful and sound so harsh?
“I’m not sure that is the whole story firstly because I have had the sense on occasion that people do deeply understand my experience. They have told me what they think the experience was like for me, and this has been right — and I have felt deeply touched.” You had to be there means they are not ready/willing to talk!!
[Editor's Note: This comment has been edited slightly to overcome a formatting glitch and restore it to what was hopefully its intended form.]
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1.1
Hi Mia, I hope you loved your visit. And I hope your post is back to how it was. Good to hear from you.
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Diane
2Hi Evan!
Yes at certain times I have had the feeling that a person does not get it even with clear communication skills. I have also had the experience that someone gets it whether or not they have experienced it or not. Though to me that is because they are very empathetic to begin with as a person. They have the ability to be a good listener and put themselves in other peoples shoes at least to some extent. Plus it is known that many people need groups to connect with others that have personally experienced what they have and moved to better place which seems very empowering for them in certain instances too. Another way to describe it is in a certain settings many are working to help others but a nurse or doctor hasn’t experienced a specific disease but they have helped many to heal from it regardless of having experienced it themselves.
Peace, Love and Joy,
Diane-
2.1
Thanks for your comment Diane. I hadn’t thought of support groups and such things – a good connection. Peace, love and joy to you too.
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Thomas
3The experience of one person able to put simple awareness to a common or similar experience – pure experience without judgment or admiration, just presence… may be one of the most exquisite gifts we can give to one another. Once I realized how busy most of us are or how bound up into our own viewpoints and judgments, I have found that those moments when one or more people have some free and available attention to simply examine, be open to, experience a common thing with others is very precious thing.
Regarding the bird call, I did live in South America for several years, so while I may or may not have heard the same or similar bird call, I do remember on occasion the distinct experience of hearing a sound that was just simply distinctly unlike anything else, not because it was “beautiful just like…” or “similar to…” something, just it’s own unique sound…
BTW am enjoying posts re Stockholm syndrome, detaching from “loser” controlling, abusers. I’m finally on the trailing edge of nearly 18 months of the totally overwhelming process of “the rude awakening”, carefully observing, recording, reviewing actual behavior, discerning the patterns, the disorientation of the world flipping upside down (ie actually right side up) “getting sane” on a progressively more stable basis ( lol) etc.
The grounded, realistic, practical tone of your site is just what I am ready for at this point. A lot of good stuff to work with for now as I am at the stage of creating and implementing a step by step plan to effect a rather, quiet, drama free, “un-sticky” exit from or change to a number of less than suitable interactions.
Thanks
Thomas
Another good sign: after years of lurking I think this is the first actual comment I’ve posted in years
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3.1
Hi Thomas, welcome to the non-lurking world. Just btw, this is Greg’s blog not mine – so the credit and compliments go to him.
I’ve never heard of the Stockholm Syndrome – if you would like to tell me more I’d be grateful. It sounds like you’ve been through a huge time. I wonder how you are feeling at the moment – anxious, excited, grounded, elated? bits of all of these and other stuff besides?
I deeply and absolutely agree with
“The experience of one person able to put simple awareness to a common or similar experience – pure experience without judgment or admiration, just presence… may be one of the most exquisite gifts we can give to one another.”Many thanks for your comment.
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Diane4
Evan,
The “Stockholm Syndrome” was coined from an incidence that happened during a bank robbery…where some of the victims actually helped the perpertrators of the crime and went on to marry, write or help with the defense of them when incarcerated later. Dr. Carver wrote an article here called the “Stockholm Syndrome” and uses it to help explain what abuse victims do and why and help supporters of victims of abusive relationships understand the dynamics that may be in play and how best to help them. You should read it, Evan!
I hope Thomas does not mind me chiming in on this.
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4.1
Thanks. A fascinating story. I’ll try to find it online and have a read. Thanks for the information.
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Deb
5Dear Evan
You raise a crucial point about our interactions with others. How much empathy do we really have with others? I believe it boils down to ‘how much do we care about others?’.
I thoroughly agree with Thomas’s summation – that the experience of another’s empathy is rare, precious and exquisite….and probably for the ‘donor’ as well.
It’s my experience that the vast majority of people simply do not care, will not set aside their own preoccupations and needs in order to consider another’s. This applies to the majority of those involved in delivering health/social services and care also. So it’s completely unsurprising that your students were so cynical. You actually give the very same reason in the first paragraph! ‘The administration’: these callous types are epidemic and squash, or try to, every mite of joy from all human interactions and endeavours. Maybe we should all be concentrating on humanising these jobsworth bureaucrats? Maybe that’s where the real problem lies? With a massive, largely covert and emotionally ignorant, global army of those care-less functionaries whose only aim is to ‘keep everything running smoothly at any cost’!
Best wishes
Deb -
6
Hi Deb, like you I think that bureaucracy is a huge problem which needs major change. And I think that bureaucratic ways of delivering health/social services is a major error. Thanks for your comment which broadens the discussion in such an interesting way.
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Deb6.1
Hello Evan
Many thanks for your swift response.
A few things occurred to me:
1. Are some, perhaps many, of those who ask for help from e.g. health/social services are symptoms of the system rather than intrinsically pathologic in some way? The bureaucrat diktat-led services are poorly able to give what services are really necessary (because in so doing, the ‘smooth running’ would be disrupted), thus the whole inefficient circus goes on and on in an ever-decreasing circle.
It seems to me that often the only real help that services users experience is from enlightened/insightful and genuinely empathic/compassionate individuals like yourself who are able to examine what’s going on and to honestly question their own practice and part in the problems.
2. The jobsworth bureaucrats are not going to change! Jiminy! What disruption THAT would cause! So, it seems to me that WE have to be the change…we have to keep pointing out how they hamstring medical, nursing, social workers, probation and police officers et al. That’s brave.
3. The big carrot, as I alluded to in my previous comment, is that genuinely feeling empathy for and with another human being is immensely rewarding. Making that ‘I/Thou’ connection and knowing, really feeling, that you’ve made a profound, supportive connection with another human being has to be near the pinnacle of human experience.
Personally I’m very sad that a majority of human beings don’t understand this or don’t want to extend themselves to understand or experience this – thereby they dehumanise themselves and make life so much more difficult (paradoxically in their unholy quest for ‘smooth running’!).
Even sadder that we have to live in the same world with these types!
It sounds like I have a real bee in my bonnet this morning! Not really – I was just caught by your thoughtful article and you’ve provoked a train of thought and inquiry, another way of seeing things, that is potentially fruitful.
Thank you.
Best wishes
Deb
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Diane7
Here’s something I reiecved this week…that applies in all you do and think…and I am not sure why I feel it needs to posted here…so strongly in me.
Crisis Theory: The idea that particular stages of development are crisis periods during which the individual is susceptible to change; during these times the person may progress or regress. Intervention at these times consists of aiding the individual to progress.
“Locus of control refers to the extent to which individuals believe that they can control events that affect them. Individuals with a high internal locus of control believe that events result primarily from their own behavior and actions. Those with a high external locus of control believe that powerful others, fate, or chance primarily determine events. Those with a high internal locus of control have better control of their behavior, tend to exhibit more political behaviors, and are more likely to attempt to influence other people than those with a high external locus of control; they are more likely to assume that their efforts will be successful. They are more active in seeking information and knowledge concerning their situation.
One’s ‘locus’ (Latin for ‘place’ or ‘location’) can either be internal (meaning the person believes that they control their life) or external (meaning they believe that their environment, some higher power, or other people control their decisions and their life)..†– (From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
“When most people pray, asking is all they do. They offer God their laundry list and then wonder why God never seems to get around to it. The truth is that God does want you to ask for things in prayer. However, God wants you to ask from your truest self. Chances are good that whatever is in the best interest of your truest self (not your paranoid self or your scared self or your ‘I just want to get ahead’ self) is of more interest to God than it is even to you.
The mystics have always known that gratitude is one of the most powerful spiritual forces there is. Just like a child who asks and takes without ever thanking her parents rarely benefits from what is given, so an adult who never focuses on giving rarely receives. End your prayer time with gratitude. It is the surest way to set yourself up for continuing to invite Jesus to the head of your internal table throughout the day.†(Excerpted from “Asphalt Jesus” by Eric Elnes)
Hope it helps…Peace, Love and Joy, Diane
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8
Hi Deb, if you have a bee in your bonnet, I like the buzzing.
I agree with your three points and very much agree with the first and third.
I think all our behaviour occurs in response to our situation. The alienating nature of bureaucracies creates problems that are then addressed by more bureaucracy!
My slight disagreement is with your point about the disruption – I think it is manageable, there is much theory about semi-autonomous teams and other systems of organisation. I also find that even (most) bureaucrats relish the opportunity to be freed of the constraints (walk into any workplace and ask how the work can be improved and you will likely be deluged with responses. All this goodwill is currently being ignored – and there are many structural impediments to its implementation.)
That empathy is rewarding I couldn’t agree more strongly with.Maybe I have a bee in my bonnet about this stuff too. I think our bees are humming the same tune. Thanks for your comments, I like them very much, and I think they add much value.
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9
Hi Evan,
In my case, I DO need to have been there to “fully understand” how another person feels about a given situation. Funny enough, I don’t think others need to have been there to understand certain experiences I share with them. Perhaps the key is the way we deliver the message (and I wouldn’t say I’m a good “message deliverer”) – Anyway. I can be empathetic, and understand how other people feel, but I would be lying if I said I can put myself in their shoes, and feel what they are feeling if I haven’t been really there. I can only “guess” or get an idea of how they feel, but when you have been really there is a much deeper connection with the other person’s feelings, since you can recall your own experience and feelings. When you haven’t been there, you can probably get the idea and understand by creating (imagining) those feelings, which in my opinion is different from recreating something you have experienced yourself in the past.
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9.1
Hi Mariana. I have a question to you: Do you think that you know the difference between you and other people who don’t need to have been there? This has got me intrigued.
I do think there can be a difference if we have been there – lots more detail to draw on I think less imagination required perhaps. As you say we can still get a sense of the other person’s feelings – which I think counts for a lot.
Thanks for your comment.
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Mariana
9.2If it’s regarding what I posted at the beginning, I think it’s a matter of perception (my perception.) This is, I perceive that people can understand me better than I am able to understand them when we (both) have not been there. But, I believe it’s also got to do with my being an extreme perfectionist. I think other people might be able to understand me -even without having been there- because (perhaps) they are not so “obsessed” with details as I am. So, it’s basically a matter of how I perceive others can understand people without having been there versus my obsession with having been there in order to understand them totally. (Actually, I do understand people, but I wish I were able to understand them better, as I do when I have had a similar experience, for instance.)
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10
Hi Mariana, thanks for the reply. It sounds like you think the biggest difference between you and others is your focus on details. I’m quite different – I just look for the big obvious things. Dealing with details takes quite a lot of discipline for me.
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